[Gate-users] Physics lists for proton therapy

Tue Aug 16 11:09:11 CEST 2016

Hi all,

in Geant4 10.2. these reference physics lists are available :
FTFP_BERT, FTFP_BERT_TRV, FTFP_BERT_HP, FTFP_INCLXX, FTFP_INCLXX_HP, 
FTF_BIC, LBE, QBBC, QGSP_BERT, QGSP_BERT_HP, QGSP_BIC, QGSP_BIC_HP, 
QGSP_BIC_AllHP, QGSP_FTFP_BERT, QGSP_INCLXX, QGSP_INCLXX_HP, QGS_BIC, 
Shielding, ShieldingLEND, ShieldingM, NuBeam, with the following EM 
options:  _EMV _EMX _EMY _EMZ _LIV _PEN __GS;
The HADRONTHERAPY_x are no reference physics lists, but examples of 
custom physics lists. In Gate 7.x it is only possible to use reference 
physics lists and no custom physics lists (which prevents you from 
making mistakes and facilitates inter comparability).

Geant4 web page recommends for medical applications:
QGSP_ BIC/BERT/INCLXX
http://geant4.cern.ch/support/proc_mod_catalog/physics_lists/useCases.shtml

Most people in proton beam therapy use/used QGSP_BIC_HP or QGSP_BERT_HP 
(e.g. Zacharatou Jarlskog et al. 2008 MGH). Depending on the energy and 
particle type one is more accurate than the other. Therefore this "QBBC" 
was developed, it is a mix of the Binary and Bertini cascade model. See  
Ivantchenko et al. 2012 "Geant4 hadronic physics for space radiation 
environment" for details. Loic and his group at MedAustron tested 
several physics lists and QBBC turned out to best reproduce their 
measurements and therefore he recommends it. Anyway, the differences to 
the QGSP_BIC_HP are small and you can also justify it. I use QBBC for 
proton dose calculations.

It is important that you use the EM option 3 (or 4), so "_EMY" (or 
"_EMZ") for accurate macroscopic dose calculation.

If you are interested in other quantities than dose, you might have to 
think of other physics lists (e.g. Dedes et al. 2014: "Assessment and 
improvements of Geant4 hadronic models in the context of prompt-gamma 
hadrontherapy monitoring").

Note that for heavier particles than protons such as carbon ion beams, 
considerable discrepancies of the QGSP_BIC were reported (see Boehlen 
et. al 2010 "Benchmarking nuclear models of FLUKA and GEANT4 for carbon 
ion therapy") and the QMD model was suggested as alternative. 
Unfortunately, only the "Shielding" physics list uses the QMD model.

I hope this helps,
best,
Andreas

Am 2016-08-15 14:01, schrieb Brent Huisman:
> Hello Sonja, others,
> 
> I took the liberty to add a section on the bottom here:
> http://wiki.opengatecollaboration.org/index.php/Users_Guide_V7.2:Setting_up_the_physics
> 
> I look forward to your additions! Also, at Creatis we sometimes speak
> about the HADRONTHERAPY lists, they sound like we should use them for
> hadrontherapy dose simulations. If there would a bit more
> documentation on them, and perhaps an update to the Geant4
> recommendations list, we would have the excuse we need.
> 
> Cheers,
> Brent
> 
>> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2016 08:53:10 +0200
>> From: "Schellhammer, Sonja" <s.schellhammer at hzdr.de>
>> To: gate-users at lists.opengatecollaboration.org
>> Cc: aswin.hoffmann at hzdr.de, susanna at uow.edu.au
>> Subject: Re: [Gate-users] Physics lists for proton therapy
>> Message-ID: <web-14104443 at cg1.fz-rossendorf.de>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8; format="flowed"
>> 
>> Dear Brent, Loic, everyone,
>> 
>> thanks for your answers! Yes, we're talking about physics lists for
>> dose in proton therapy. If I remember correctly, Susanna
>> Guatelli is responsible for HADRONTHERAPY_1 and HADRONTHERAPY_2, so
>> I put you in cc, Susanna.
>> 
>> I think coming up with a wiki-page about "who uses which
>> physicslists and why", as Brent suggested, is a great idea, as there
>> seems to be no easy consensus.
>> What would be the next steps to do this?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Sonja
>> 
>> Am Fri, 12 Aug 2016 12:00:01 +0200 schrieb
>> gate-users-request at lists.opengatecollaboration.org:
>>> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:32:28 +0200
>>> From: Brent Huisman <brent.huisman at insa-lyon.fr>
>>> To: loic.grevillot at medaustron.at
>>> Cc: gate-users at lists.opengatecollaboration.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Gate-users] Physics lists for proton therapy
>>> Message-ID:
>>> 
>> <CA+RDvtbaZ-YwgYeWpe7xEUfu7MWBehSBt5UY6crYHfF9G+Si-g at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> 
>>> Hello Loic, Sonja,
>>> 
>>> I assume you are speaking about physicslists for dose?
>>> 
>>> The Geant4 collaboration at this time recommends something else,
>> and here
>>> at Creatis most use QGSP_BIC_HP as far as I know. See:
>>> 
>> 
> http://geant4.web.cern.ch/geant4/support/proc_mod_catalog/physics_lists/useCases.shtml
>> [1]
>>> 
>>> In addition, in Geant4 10 two new physicslists were introduced,
>>> HADRONTHERAPY_1 and HADRONTHERAPY_2, the first of which is
>> basically
>>> QGSP_BIC_HP. I do not know who's actually tuning these lists
>> though. See:
>>> http://geant4.web.cern.ch/geant4/support/ReleaseNotes4.10.1.html
>> [2]
>>> 
>>> Loic, I've never heard of QBBC, why do you recommend it?
>>> 
>>> Physicslist tuning is indeed a bit opaque: not easy to know who
>> optimizing
>>> which lists for what. I would be very happy if we could spend a
>> wiki-page
>>> on it, even if it's just a list of who uses which physicslist and
>> why.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Brent
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:13:12 +0000
>>>> From: Grevillot Loic <loic.grevillot at medaustron.at>
>>>> To: "Schellhammer, Sonja" <s.schellhammer at hzdr.de>,
>>>> "gate-users at lists.opengatecollaboration.org"
>>>> <gate-users at lists.opengatecollaboration.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Gate-users] Physics lists for proton therapy
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> 
>> <HE1PR04MB215675174A105E19BDB9FB759E1E0 at HE1PR04MB2156.eurprd
>>>> 04.prod.outlook.com [3]>
>>>> 
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> 
>>>> New recommendations are proposed on the Gate Website (
>>>> http://www.opengatecollaboration.org/UsersGuide [4])
>>>> Currently we are working on the validation of QBBC_EMY at
>> MedAustron, so I
>>>> would recommend that one. (QBBC_EMZ is very similar as well)
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Loïc
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Gate-users [mailto:gate-users-bounces at lis
>>>> ts.opengatecollaboration.org [5]] On Behalf Of Schellhammer,
>> Sonja
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 10:07 AM
>>>> To: gate-users at lists.opengatecollaboration.org
>>>> Subject: [Gate-users] Physics lists for proton therapy
>>>> 
>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>> 
>>>> I am currently setting up a Geant4 model of our beam and choosing
>> the
>>>> physics lists.
>>>> Does anyone of you have any experience (i.e. preferably has done
>>>> measurements) on which of the lists are currently the most
>>>> relevant/accurate ones for proton therapy? I am aware of Jarlskog
>> 2008,
>>>> Grevillot 2010 and Kurosu 2014, but looking for more recent
>> results.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for your input,
>>>> Sonja Schellhammer
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Sonja M. Schellhammer, MSc
>>>> Institute of Radiooncology, Helmholtz-Zentrum Dresden-Rossendorf
>>>> phone: +49 (0)351 458-7627, web: www.hzdr.de [6] Händelallee 26,
>> 01309
>>>> Dresden, Germany Board of Directors: Prof. Dr. Dr. h. c. Roland
>> Sauerbrey,
>>>> Prof. Dr. Dr. h. c. Peter Joehnk Company Registration Number: VR
>> 1693,
>>>> Amtsgericht Dresden
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://geant4.web.cern.ch/geant4/support/proc_mod_catalog/physics_lists/useCases.shtml
> [2] http://geant4.web.cern.ch/geant4/support/ReleaseNotes4.10.1.html
> [3] http://04.prod.outlook.com
> [4] http://www.opengatecollaboration.org/UsersGuide
> [5] http://ts.opengatecollaboration.org
> [6] http://www.hzdr.de
> [7] http://lists.opengatecollaboration.org/mailman/listinfo/gate-users
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